* So, a tour, a DVD release, a sitcom, two recommissioned radio shows
(Banter and That Was Then This Is Now) - it's all going right for you
at the moment. Have you been influenced by all that Deal or No Deal
you've been watching and secretly been Cosmic Ordering like Noel
Edmonds?
No, definitely not. Having had a career of ups and downs I have always found it hard to determine what factors lead to success or to one coming in or out of favour. I think that over the last few years I have worked quite hard at pushing myself in various different areas: stand-up, blogs, script-writing, journalism and acting and that has had a cumulative effect as it reminds people you exist. Hopefully I have managed to maintain a high standard in all these jobs which is also helpful. But I think it's partly to do with the fact that the work I did with Stewart Lee in the mid 90s was very much appreciated by young people who liked comedy (though not many other people) and those young people have now grown up and got jobs in the industry and are journalists, producers or writers and give us both work and/or kudos. I think they generally recognise how we were underrated by the powers that were at the time and are doing their best to redress the balance.
If you stick around long enough in this business then your turn comes round again. That is what Noel Edmonds has proven and he can write things down on bits of paper all he likes, it makes no odds.
* Is there such a thing as an average day for you, especially whilst
on tour?
The average day is one where I just mull around, getting nothing done, drinking coffee and wishing I was working. Luckily there are a few exceptional days where I manage to get work done, but mainly I stultify in a fug of depression. And having some many different areas to work in I don't generally have a typical day. When on tour it can get a little bit monotonous as you drive from town to town and perform the show and get drunk and then do the same thing again. It's like Groundhog Day, but not as funny.
This time round I have a lot of writing work to do and a new Edinburgh show to get working on, so hopefully my days will be taken up with writing and I will drink a bit less. Some hope!
* This show doesn't seem quite the epic that was the 12 Tasks of
Hercules show. Is this simply a case of comedy evolution or was it a
desire for less technical props?
It's a double edged reason. I partly wanted to get back into doing stand-up because I had a big mental block about it and didn't think I could do it and I wanted to push myself to overcome this. But also the more extravagant Edinburgh shows were too expensive to put on and tour and making it just me and a microphone means that I can save money and put the show on without need for a tour manager or operator.
I am loving doing stand up, which I thought was a limited medium for a long time. It is in fact one of the most limitless and expressive media in the world.
* There's been an ongoing theme of an impending middle age crisis in
your recent work - script editing the tour of Grumpy Old Women,
completing huge tasks in your last show, and you've named this year's
Edinburgh show 'Oh F*** I'm 40!'. Is comedy your therapy?
I have always used comedy for therapy. I was doing similar shows about my weight and masculinity in the mid 90s and then shows like Talking Cock and Hercules also made me examine my soul (and my genitals) in quite some detail. I think it's important to ground comedy at least partly in reality and the more honest I am about the way I think and am, the better the shows are. Not to say that everything in my stand up act is true, often I exaggerate something to make it funnier, but yes it's good to work through things in this way. Hercules helped me through a depressing time in my life, almost sending me mental in the process. The general problem with using shows as therapy is that they are all exceptionally stressful to create and put on, so I am not sure it works entirely. But a comedian and a writer have to be inward looking in the hope of explaining the world and the human condition and it's something I have always done. I am in a sort of mid-life crisis at the moment and reaching 40 does make one contemplate how one's life is going. But the more fucked up things get, the better that is for my art. Which is actually quite liberating. As that which hurts me also makes me stronger.
Will the big four oh mark the beginnings of a more mature approach to comedy, perhaps taking part in a comedy theatre 'discussion' like Stewart
Lee's What Would Judas Do? or will you regress just to spite it? Do
you yearn to break free of the 'silly sidekick' role you established
for yourself in your Lee and Herring days?
It is hard to know which way hitting 40 will take me. To be honest I was ding theatrical shows back in the 90s (both plays and monologues) and my first entirely solo show "Christ on a Bike" had similar themes to Stewart's latest one (inevitably as we worked together for so long we do end up covering some of the same ground). I don't feel I was a "sidekick" in Lee and Herring, but admittedly the character I played was further from the real me and was a bit stupid. It has been difficult to find the correct new persona post Lee and Herring, but I think I am getting the balance right. I am still silly and childish at times, but there's a darkness and intelligence behind what I am doing. As such I feel I have broken free from the previous incarnation already. But maybe I am wrong. It was harder for me than for Stew as I think he had always worked on his solo stuff in tandem with the double act and his persona in the double act wasn't that different from the real him. I was much more embroiled in the Herring from Lee and Herring and didn't have a solo act as such, so finding my feet with that has been a bit of a struggle.
* You recently reunited with Stewart Lee for a one-off performance at
'Tedstock' which went down very well. There has been a steady cry for
you to reunite and 2007 is the 20th anniversary of your first
Edinburgh show together. You did once call Lee and Herring 'the Take
That of comedy' - and Take That have reformed.... Do you think
there's a chance you and Stewart will devise a one-off gig at
Edinburgh this year to mark the occasion?
(If you offered to help with the child minding Stewart might be up
for it - see his reply to our interview in January: http://
www.thestage.co.uk/features/feature.php/15654 )
The link does not work. We did discuss doing something in Edinburgh this year, but felt that it would probably divide the audiences for our solo shows. Also we're both pretty busy. Maybe we might be able to do a one off night towards the end of the run if we get time to work on it. Tedstock was a lot of fun and we slipped very comfortably back into the old relationship, and I suspect we might do it again some time, but in a way it might be a mistake (especially for me) to go back to the old act when I have now established a new, realer persona. But we are still friends and we enjoy each other's company (more so now we don't live in each other's pockets) so I'd be surprised if we never worked together again. Tedstock made me realise quite how much affection there was amongst a certain generation to us, but also how special a relationship Stew and I had. It was a shame it got curtailed a little bit too soon, but if it hadn't we wouldn't have done the other things we've done.
* Would you feel like you were jumping on the retro/reunion tours
bandwagon were Lee & Herring to reform to perform together now? And
would that make you feel like a sell-out?
Sell-out implies we'd be selling out, which isn't something that ever really happened with L&H. It was a strange atmosphere in the Tedstock gig and nostalgia was a big part of it, but I think that because we never got to achieve our full potential in the 90s that any reunion would actually be completing unfinished business, rather than running something into the ground. We were lucky that we weren't around long enough to start to annoy people with our catchphrases or do annoying in your face advertising campaigns. I don't think it would be a sell-out or a bandwagon thing. If it happens it would be because we wanted to do something good for its own sake. We were never popular enough to sell out like that and I don't think we would be if we did it again. It would be a similarly cultish reward for our fans and chance to put things to bed for us. I think we could do quite a theatrical show about the nature of ageing and mediocrity and the random chance that makes one thing a smash and something else a failure. But probably we won't do anything.
* You're currently in the process of writing a comedy drama for
Channel 4 about a comedy double act. I take it a lot of it will be
based upon your experiences with Stewart. Can you tell us a little
more about it? Will you be performing in it?
It's certainly informed by our double act, but it's not about us. I am basing it on a lot of double acts and so it is much further away from us than you might imagine. For a start the double act in Double Act are going to end up being very successful, so that clearly isn't based on us. It is actually much easier to distance the characters from Stew and me than it was to distance the characters in You Can Choose Your Friends from my own family, as I only have experience of one family, but I have known lots of double acts. I hope it's not like me and Stew though, mainly because I think that the character that you would assume is me is a bit more of a twat than I ever was. But there's some of us in there. And lots of not us.
* Whatever happened to the sitcom you and Stewart Lee were going to
write about Hostages?
We wrote a pilot script for America but it never got picked up. At the time people thought that it was too limited to have a sit-com set in one room, based on very small things occurring. Then of course the Office came out. So we were ahead of our time, or behind it. I also think it was like Big Brother before Big Brother, though fictional rather than reality. Also although hostage situations were never very nice they have got a lot nastier recently, which might put people off. I still think there might be something in it. It wasn't a bad script. And it might be a good project for Stew and me.
* You've also just finished writing and filming a sitcom 'You Can
Chose Your Friends' for ITV. Did ITV approach you about a possible
project? How did that come about? What's the basic premise behind You
Can Chose Your Friends and do you have any idea when are we likely to
see that on our screens?
I actually wrote it first as a sit-com for the BBC. It was about three generations of a family and the way relationships have changed over the last 50 years. And just the way a family operates, hopefully in a realistic but accessible and funny way. A bit more real and darker than most sit-coms. But the BBC weren't proving very keen, but when Paul Jackson from ITV read it, he really understood what I was going for and suggested we do it as a 90 minute drama, which is what I had wanted all along. So he commissioned it and off we went. It's scheduled for the 15th June, though there is a possibility that it might go to series, in which case it might get postponed to be the first episode. The cast are phenomenal and I have seen the almost final cut and am very pleased with how it has turned out. People seem to like it and identify with it and it's a bit different than the usual ITV comedy drama, so I hope it comes to something. It might just confuse people though. There's a lot of talking in it and no guns or paedophiles or car chases or gangsters. It's gentle and edgy at the same time. I have loads of ideas for a series so hopefully it will happen.
* There's been a lot of criticism aimed at TV commissioners recently
and you've previously spoken about the dissatisfaction around This
Morning With Richard Not Judy being decommissioned/cancelled. Do you
think TV commissioners are less likely to take risks with comedy now?
Or is it all down to who you know and, perhaps more importantly, who
likes or dislikes you? Does TV have a secret reputation amongst
comedians for treating its comedy writers and performers poorly?
A lot of it is down to luck. The rumour is that Jane Root wanted to pull the Office after one episode cos she didn't think it was funny, but then it got good reviews and started taking off and then she heralded it as an example of why she was so great! Lots of good things get lost in the mix and it's hard to know why some things get discovered and others don't. With Lee and Herring we kept getting commissioned by someone who would then leave and the next Controller wouldn't be so keen on inheriting someone else's project and would cancel us. It's a shame. We were really starting to get somewhere. But it's just the way it goes. I think executives worry too much about ratings and things being instantaneous hits. Most good things take a while to bed down and if they're lucky enough to get a decent run they find their audience. Look at TV Burp and Only Fools and Horses. There aren't enough executives who know their stuff well enough. And very few have the courage of their convictions. You need to find executives who can spot stuff with potential and then get behind it. In my career Paul Jackson is the only executive who has consistently done this, not just with my stuff, but I am very glad he has been so supportive. I think also that the whole system of awards and stuff is way out of whack. The broadcasters generally choose the nominees for each award and then these get voted on, so they push the things that they want to be a success. Awards should be looking at everything and spotting the unsupported little shows that are secretly great. Eventually I believe that talent and perserverence win out, but I have had some very depressing periods of my career when I have felt it hasn't been worth the effort.
* Emma Kennedy (
http://www.thestage.co.uk/connect/focus/kennedy.php)
told us of the time you were heckled by a group of professional
comedians at Edinburgh. Is comedy actually a rather mean spirited and
competitive business? Or was that due to a stigma attached to the
Oxford Revue (and if so - do you think it still exists today?) The student revues are no longer relevant or important. They weren't really in 1988 when I was doing one - stand up was already in the ascendancy, but there was a lot of lingering resentment about perceived privilege or old boy networks, that had probably never existed and certainly not for a decade or so (definitely not with the Oxford Revue which had discovered no-one since Rowan Atkinson). But it was an understandable resentment and I think the comedians that year were a little too gleeful in laying the boot in to some 20 year olds who were just starting out. It affected my confidence a lot and also led to my aversion to stand up.
But comedy isn't that mean spirited and in hindsight, knowing more about Late N Live now than I did then, I don't think we got treated that differently to anyone else. Though some comedians resent Oxbridge, it is generally just the ones with a chip on their shoulder (and nearly all of them went to good Universities that are ostensibly the same as Oxbridge anyway). Ultimately you are judged by what you do. Going to Oxford is an irrelevance in my chosen profession. I used to be more ashamed and worried about it and my early experiences probably fuelled this, but now I just do my job and never really think about where I studied History 20 years ago
* Stand up, to non-comedians, often seems like a terrifying prospect.
Have you had moments where you suffered from performance or writing
anxiety? And do you have any tips for overcoming it?
Yes of course. It's scary to begin with and occasionally scary even now. I was especially scared when I came back to it as I had a lot of demons to overcome. But the way to beat the fear is to keep doing it. Eventually you get so humiliated that nothing else can harm you. Hopefully you get better too. Know when to give up would be my other advice. Some people just aren't cut out for it. Give it five years and if you're still being pummelled on a regular basis then stop doing it. Experience and ability will get you through. I am fairly fearless on stage, even in the face of physical threats which I would run a mile from in real life
* Do you think there was anything that could have deterred you from
being a comedian?
Someone with a gun telling me not to do it? I always wanted to do this and all that would have stopped me would have been me not being good enough to do it. It's the job I wanted to do all my life and I still love doing it. I think I would always at least have tried. But I had my knocks and my difficult times and I am sure there are more to come, but aside from being rubbish or suddenly deciding I wanted to devote my life to Jesus I can't see me not having done it.
* Is it hard to get back into touring after a break? Do you find you
enjoy touring and writing more now you're more experienced? Touring a
one-man show and writing must be a quite solitary experiences - did
that contribute to the Menage a Un idea? Or was it another result of
your Warming Up blog?
Yes, it's all pretty solitary and that is part of the reason for the current show. It takes a gig or two to get back into the run of things if you have had a month or so off, but aside from the ITV filming I have been gigging regularly for the last two years and so the tour doesn't feel any different than what I've been doing. Just more organised maybe. I like touring still, possibly more these days. I find writing harder though, because I am lazier and I think my standards have risen and I find it hard to put crap on paper, even if I know I can polish it up later. Writing is really terrifically hard and depressing, whilst performing is relatively easy and fun. It's about getting the mixture right. And you do meet people when you are touring, which you don't really when you are writing. But if the stuff gets made then the fun of making it and working with other people more than makes up for the solitude. I quite like being on my own for some of the time. Again it's all about getting the balance right.
* Are there places you look forward to visiting on tour? Any venues
that you look forward to returning to, or that you inwardly groan at
the mention of and what sort of things about venues leave an
impression on you?
Are there elements of touring that you wish could be removed from the
process?
It would be good if I could teleport for some of the longer journeys. The only thing I hate is when you have to drive over 300 miles in a day. Sometimes the hotels can be lonely and depressing. It's not as much fun offstage as people might imagine - though occasionally you get invited to a party or meet some fun people and it's brilliant. But mostly it's back to the hotel alone to masturbate to the poor quality pornography laid on for sexually unambitious businessmen. There are some favourite places where I have got to know the staff or have a relationship with the venue, but I like going everywhere. I will try anywhere once. If I don't like it I won't go back.
* Do you notice a marked difference in how audiences react to your
material around the country, region to region?
Really no. I think this is a myth. Audiences are different every night, but aside from some towns being more up for having the piss taken out of them than others there is no real pattern. You can do two gigs in the same town and get two totally different reactions. For me it's generally about whether the audience at the gig are newcomers to live comedy or have seen lots of it. I do better with the latter crowd as I guess I am messing with the formulas a bit.
* Do you find audiences want to 'join in' with your themes and offer
their own experiences? Has this turned into the new form of heckling
(do you still get heckled?) And do you welcome such 'contributions'? I get heckled in stand up gigs. Less often in my own shows, though if people do shout stuff out in the theatre show, it is often helpful or funny and might become part of the show. Most hecklers are drunk and unfunny and hated by everyone else in the audience. You quickly learn how to use these facts to your advantage. I still fuck it up sometimes, but usually I am less drunk and much funnier than whoever is shouting out. I like it when you get someone who adds to the night rather than takes away though.
* Your Someone Likes Yoghurt and Twelve Tasks of Hercules tours are
being released on DVD by Go Faster Stripe. That's very good news for
the uncommercial comedians to see that it can work even without TV
backing, as well as for your cult following. Have you ever thought of
buying the rights to TMWRNJ or Fist of Fun and releasing it on DVD
yourself? A fan has done that with Joking Apart after the BBC stated
they had no intentions to issue it on DVD (
http://www.thestage.co.uk/
tvtoday/2006/06/joking_apart.php) Are you filming this tour of Menage
a Un for possible future release too?
I just want to get the shows out there. It's not really making me any money, but I can sell enough DVDS at a cheap price to cover costs and then my shows don't die. I think the BBC shows would prove very expensive to release on DVD as they are full of clips and music and images that we'd have to clear. I'd love the dvds to be available though. Especially fo Fist of Fun as we had at least two episodes of extra material that never got shown and longer versions of all the sketches, though I would be surprised if the footage has survived. I really don't think it will happen unless one of us reaches Peter Kay proportions of fame. Don't hold your breath. I am filming ménage a un and am even considering trying to re-do Talking Cock and Christ on a Bike which currently are officially unrecorded. It's a great idea and I urge everyone to buy Stew and my DVDS so that more comedians will get the chance to have their work released.
* A number of comedians are offering podcasts and videos of short
skits they've filmed themselves and release them on YouTube and via
their websites. You have a solid fanbase online via your own website
and your daily blog. Do you see it as something you might try in the
future? Or is the 'free' nature of the internet something which would
deter you?
I have thought about it, but I am not very technical, which is why the gofaster thing has worked out for me. I really want to do a tv version of my blog, and if no-one buys it I might just film it myself and put it on the net or sell it on DVD. I think it's the best thing I have ever written, and it's nearly come off on telly, but fallen through at the last minute. But hopefully one day the internet will be the marketplace and everyone will just be able to do what they want with no need to go through broadcasters. If I get a bit less lazy I may well have a crack at filming some stuff myself
* Do you think your website has been beneficial to your career? Are
there downsides to having such an approachable online presence, or
are the majority of messages from genial well wishers who enjoy
following your career? Do you feel a sense of obligation to your
readers to update daily? Do you suffer from blogger's guilt when you
can't upload a new entry when on tour etc?
I think the website and myspace have both kept me alive in people's minds and helped spread the word. It is nearly all positive and it's great to have a close relationship with my audience and be able to communicate with them. Occasionally you get idiots trying to wind you up, or people who become too obsessed and don't understand the boundaries or people who are mental and tell you they are going to kill you, but on the whole people are lovely and supportive and funny. Warming Up has also provided me with a lot of material and ideas for stuff that I would never have otherwise had. It is making me better as a writer. It also makes it easier to sell my DVDS and let people know what I am up to. I think they appreciate the amount of work I put into it all. It is an awful lot of work. I have not missed a day of Warming Up since I started over four years ago. This feat has received very little recognition. I wonder how long I will have to keep going before people start to notice!
* And finally, I believe Jimmy Tarbuck once told you that being a
comedian was the hardest job in the world. What advice would YOU give
to any budding comedians reading?
Yes he did. Rather arrogantly I thought. He is wrong. My advice to comedians would be that being a comedian is the easiest job in the world, but if you want to succeed then you have to work hard at it. The way you learn is to do it as much as you can, anywhere you can. Too many people these days seem to want to be discovered and be famous. This is a ludicrous ambition (though I am sure I wanted the same). You are much better off doing gigs for as long as possible and learning how to do it, before being discovered. I am still learning every time I get on stage. I don't expect this to change. It's a great job. Enjoy it. If you can do it. Try to get a perspective on whether you can do it though.
